I am so very excited about this first piece of the Wonder Womxn project. This project is very close to my heart, and it has been long in the making. It will be presenting womxn riggers who tie, teach, perform, or have anything to do with shibari in an effort to provide a different perspective and show the reality of gender dynamics within the world of shibari in Europe. There is an existing stereotype that in it, the usual practice is for men to be tying women, and while this exists, there are other dynamics, involving different gender and sexual identities, orientations and preferences. I believe they are equally important and need representation and sharing.

What is Shibari for you and why do you do it?

Sawa: So active Shibari/rigging for me is creating a picture or making a drawing, creating a figure, sculpting something beautiful. It is working with the element of the human being, and its physical form, its emotional form, and rope. And bringing those together to create something.

So it's more like an artistic impression, a visual. Do you also get satisfaction from the process of creating it or it's just the result and looking at the result?

No, it is not just the result. I think the process is also very nice, especially as I'm tying. For me, there are almost no points in a session when something is not beautiful. And there's actually no fixed endpoint. It's just one wave. Of tying on, tying off, sometimes it's about a position, but then it's more technical.

For me, Shibari starts at the first moment I touch my partner to the last moment I touch my partner.

It's a way of creating something I like. Either through the distance, or through time, or rope, positioning, bonding, talking, all of that is part of creating something beautiful.

Does pain have anything to do with it?

Yes. I would not hurt just to hurt someone. Or hurt someone to give pain just for my pleasure of giving pain, but if it is asked for, I'm helping out. And if it's received in a positive way it makes me happy. If the positioning for the sake of the figure, or the sculpting, is inflicting pain, I'm okay with that. It's okay. So, someone said that makes me the most dominant person, most sadistic person because it's like I don't care if it hurts so much. It's for me, my ropes, not for the pain. It's for me, it's not for the suffering or whatsoever.

I can also feel very sorry for the person in pain. I know that sometimes when I do something it pinches and I know it hurts and I'm very sorry about that. I hate pinching. And I know that hanging only in an upper thigh cuff and a TK is super painful and exhausting. And I rather feel sorry, than enjoying someone enduring that.

For example, when we did this backbend face down earlier - it is super harsh, super exhausting. And very pushy and then also the transition, I know it hurts a lot. I always say I'm not a sadist because I don't take pleasure in knowing that this tie hurts Husalia at this moment. And that it exhaust or pinches the shoulder, or whatsoever. It just doesn't give me pleasure. It is the sacrifice for the tie.

If we take my martial arts background - I do have a good understanding of pain and inflicting pain, so this might seem sadistic and dominant, yet it is just a practical usage of knowledge.

What about you as a model? Do you do it to enjoy the pain of it or is it because of the connection? Or is it because of the way to force your body?

Husalia: I think the tying with Sawa is mostly about the connection. And yes pain is a side effect that occurs while tying and I'm also asking for it, if we are in the mood. But it can also be very relaxing. So there are different effects of it. And depending on our mood we decide what to do or not. For me pain is mostly very enjoyable. But I think it's more about the connection and the story that we create in the moments we share. You have a journey together with a starting and ending point.

Okay so, Sawa how long you’ve been doing rope?

Sawa: Active Shibari, as in rigging I started around three years ago. Passive a bit longer, I started as a model. And playing around with ropes from the age of, I don't know somewhere in my teens. So I do distinguish a lot between you know playing with ropes, sexual bondage, Shibari, Kinbaku - I differentiate between them. These are all types of ropes I do with people. And Shibari as such is approximately three years now. And it was a very deep dive into the rabbit hole.

You were a model before for quite a while I guess. For how long just...

I actually don't know for about how long I modeled in Shibari. A little more than three years. And for bondage at least ten years. So I really loved this very tight stuff, very fuckable stuff. Then I changed to Shibari and to Kinbaku.

How did you decide to switch? Because for me, I switch only in terms with rope. Besides rope I'm submissive. So for me, it's very challenging to kind of switch the mindset and be in control and being the one responsible. How did you do that?

Well first of all, for me there's no change in mindset. A lot of people say, yeah, you can be so dominant when topping, or whatsoever, but in my head, there is no switch from the subspace to the top space. Not at all.

I'm in the same space when I tie actively as I'm in the same space tying passively. There is no switch.

Which is why I always feel so repulsed when someone calls me dominant or topping. I started tying because I was curious about the technique. I was curious about what happens when and why. And I was curious how does this tie affect me as a model and how does that tie work? And why do I feel supported when I have an upper thigh rope, why I feel not supported if I'm sagging on an ankle tie. So, switching, not switching, the same state of mind. For me, it's learning what is happening and applying it with my own intention. For a while, by the way, I'd find it too tough to dominate people, and it completely drained me out of all energy.

So, after a session, I felt deprived, angry, sad, nauseous, and I was like okay maybe doing ropes is not for me at all. And then, I asked myself why, and I recognized that my mindset is wrong. I'm not tying for the person in ropes. I'm tying for myself, and what do I actually want for myself.

Okay. What part in your life does it all have? You said that you have a job and you're doing all these other different things, than there's rope, what's the balance?

There is no balance at all. I like my work, I like my sports, I like hanging out with friends, but actually I just do rope, my friends do rope, my lovers do rope, my social circles are rope people, my free-time activities are ropes, my vacations are with ropes, my holidays are spent at rope events. Actually, I was trying to think of the last travel with no ropes involved and it was 2 weekends ago, the birthday of my partner's grandmother. So rope is kind of the center of my life.

And doing other things to sort of just live?

Yeah, so living from Shibari at my current position is not possible. I make no money at all with it. I'm giving private lessons, but it's nearly sufficient to cover some costs - it's like giving a private or giving a workshop to get my next workshop by myself.

Well, also it's probably Berlin in general because there are so many people who teach here.

What I teach is actually the application of what I know from martial arts. This might be body-handling, this might be pressure points, this might be breath play, this might be an understanding of how long I can let someone really suffer in that position.

Because I do very well know the switch of mind, when you think, "I can't bear it, I can't bear it, I can't bear it", but then it becomes actually quite okay.

I know sometimes when someone is really struggling in rope, and when you get tired you will recognize it's okay. You can bear that, you can carry that. And this is what I love, in holding space for, just holding space for this transition in mind. For example, when she (husalia) was hanging over the bed, it was her shoulder. It becomes acceptable after some time and you get used to it and you get more relaxed about it, but it takes some time depending on the amount of pain, where it hurts”

So when she told me, for example, "My shoulder hurts", I changed the stretch into a different position, but I didn't untie it because her shoulder is hurting. I know it's just muscle pain and pinching in the muscle which is very stressful, but you won't die and you won't lose your nerves.

So, there is actually a specific knowledge ...

I have 26 years of martial arts knowledge.

Can you talk a bit more about that? What kind of martial art were you learning?

Well, I started with judo, the usual martial art kids start with, in Germany. When I was a little bit older, this became very not so cool, so I continued for a few years with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which most people do better know as Nin-Jutsu, so the art of the ninja. It is quite nice because for me as a teenager at the time, I could do martial arts, fight, but also learn acrobatics, body handling. I had a lot of exposure to people who had a medical background. Then again, I was a teenager and I wanted to see something new, so I started with Krav Maga.

Krav Maga was actually for me, for a long time, interesting for the psychological part. I did a lot of Luta Livre for the floor part in Krav Maga and Kapap, as both teach how to defend yourself on the floor. And that's where I really drove into the body handling and pressure point part 'cause being a very un-sporty girl with little movement against all these very big, tall and heavy guys is like, pressure points are the only way to get ahead.

Do you still do martial arts?

I made a break for two-and-a-half years and just training for myself. I plan to continue this year. I know where I'm gonna train, but I'm not sure which class I'm gonna take. It will end up with some Muay Thai or some Kali, I think. Kali because it's about knife play. I like knives.

In general, when you started tying, did you actually see any reaction? Were people excited that you are a female rigger tying people? Did you feel comfortable?

Well, I think I'm a bit different from others in that because I'll always be that one girl in martial arts. I have always been that girl and like, yeah these are my buddies, 22 guys of martial artists, security police officers. When I started tying, yes, of course, there were more males tying females, but that was not unusual for me. Just like a logical follow-up, like okay, once more. But, especially in Berlin, it changed quite fast. First of all, I came diverted from the sexualization of bondage. I'm very peculiar in terms of sex.

I'm kind of a grey-sexual person, so I don't need to have penetrative sexual intercourse to be happy, and I'm very capable of retrieving orgasms from pain, so this was like okay, this has nothing to do with sex. Which was quite welcomed when I came to Berlin, meeting a lot of girls who also tie non-erotic. They tie for the pain, they tie for the get-together, they tie for the fun, they tie for like everything but the sex. Or being sexy. Or sexual, or whatsoever. Sensual. Not being sensual.

Then I hung out much more with girls tying girls and girls tying in general and girls being dominant and women and then, occasionally, I stumbled upon cis-male rigger tying a cis-woman and that's okay, that's happening too. I had a very casual relationship to the whole gender thing - who is tying and whos not. And only when I started to get more out of Berlin into more remote areas of Germany, but also into all the international events, then I started to encounter this pair shipping in terms of Shibari.

In Berlin, everybody ties with everybody. I think, first of all, there is an east-west but also Berlin, non-Berlin divide happening of rather pairs staying connected to each other vs here in Berlin is a more hedonistic situation. You do have your favorite people with whom you might tie very often, but most of us are not closed to the idea of tying someone else or getting tied by someone else.

This idea didn't even occur to me - that I might have to just tie with one person. That's not even an option.

No, no, no. But I also think this it's connected to the sexualization of this. In Berlin, you have more people who do it for fun, for acrobatics, for SM, and not for the sensual/sexual part, where in other cities, it is very much about the sensual and sexual and that you'd most probably prefer with your partner. It's all about the intimacy and yeah I do enjoy that too, yes, intimacy is fine, yet it's not the only way for me to do ropes.

And I also think, for example, if I tie actively and it resonates in me that the other person feels sexy, I do kind of underline the sexiness, but I'm not sexualizing the person. So for example, I, as a model, I really hate it when the slip is moving, so when my model has that, I move it back. But it's not about touching her, not about grabbing her boobs or whatsoever. But what I always can do is appreciate them, for their beauty, the breast in that way and the fabric is just covering the nipple and following the lines of the curves of the boobs, I appreciate the beauty, I still have no feeling desire, to suck, fuck, touch, whatsoever.

We are talking about you being the active part and we didn't mention you being the passive part. Like you said that you're in pretty much the same mindset in both, but, do you prefer to do any of it over the other? How often do you do one or the other?

Well, I do not prefer the one over the other, but I am a highly masochistic person and I do need my dose of pain and I can get it anyway by doing sports or by doing SM or whatever. I just love pain and suffering. There's muscle aching all the time. For me, it would be like a massage of my soul, so I love being tied in an SM way and that mostly is much more intense than any sexual intercourse could be for me and it would completely overwhelm me if anyone would fuck me at that moment. Like I don't need that. I'm so happy and confined and in peace with myself just with that. I also love sexy time, Kinbaku, sensual, erotic, but I prefer the intimacy more than the sexualization. I love the closeness, the connectedness. And then to the exhaustion of most male riggers, I'm not in a sexual mood afterward. I love how people are, like no, I'm cuddly and you can … no, coffee is nice or a glass of wine, so it's okay. Oh, you want sex? Oh, okay. Sex is so pointless. I’ll get around...maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow...

I don't prefer one - active tying over the other - getting tied. I do need my dose of rope, so I'm kind of a junkie in that term, and if I'm doing one too much over the other, I feel the imbalance … so I need a balance between those.

/* The name of this project is inspired by the Wonder Woman Comic book, whose author - William Moulton Marston was a bondage enthusiast, living in a polyamorous relationship

All photos taken by me