This project is very close to my heart, and it has been long in the making. It will be presenting womxn riggers who tie, teach, perform, or have anything to do with shibari in an effort to provide a different perspective and show the reality of gender dynamics within the world of shibari in Europe. There is an existing stereotype that in it, the usual practice is for men to be tying women, and while this exists, there are other dynamics, involving different gender and sexual identities, orientations and preferences. I believe they are equally important and need representation and sharing.

Vanina: How long have you been teaching and how long you have actually been doing bondage?

Kitty: I've been a model for six years. I started tying about half a year after I started modelling. I began teaching about two years ago. I've had the privilege to teach both in my country and in a lot of international venues and it's been a great ride. I've held workshops in London, in Rotterdam, I've been here at EURIX, teaching twice. So that's really cool. I just love sharing information. I'm very sad that there is no formal way to get this knowledge. So, you have to rely on the community in order to get information. Otherwise if we just sit in our bubbles thinking we're the greatest, we're never going to evolve.

Billie: I started doing bondage in 2013, five years ago. I started tying about three years ago. It was a spur of the moment thing, it wasn't a conscious decision I made - “I’ll start tying and take this path”. But, I really like where this path has led me instead. Now I've been teaching for about a year, maybe less. This also started as a spur of the moment thing by helping a friend who was having a bar, to bring more people in the bar and sell some beer on Wednesdays.

And I met some amazing people! It was so cool, and the group grew. And the community I found now is so important to me, it's so vital to my existence.

Because, bondage for me means exhibitionism, actually, because I like putting myself on the stage. Now I've shifted my interest from my own pleasure, and my own exhibitionism, towards building my community. Now for me, rope has become a lot more political. I'm trying to put images of rope out there, Romanian images of rope. I tie for recreational purposes, too, of course, but most of the things I do are for my community and for my political goals.

Vanina: Can you talk a bit more about the political part of it, and specifically Romania, because I'm coming from Bulgaria, so the countries have similarities

Billie: Of course, LGBTQ is a fringe group, of course, BDSM is a fringe group, of course, kink is also. Even though rope is becoming a bit more popular now, it’s still a fringe group. Studies show that one in five people have tried polyamorous or some other form of consensual non-monogamous relationships and there's a growing number of kinky people practitioners, too. They still have a very bad image in society. They're perceived badly, and people do not want to associate themselves with the BDSM fringe group. I feel like we are being shunned from public spaces, from bars, from restaurants. People will not host our events. People will not associate themselves with kink. And then I look at the Netherlands and Berlin in Germany and they have kinky coworking. They have that. They have marketing, they have fliers. “Do your kink-work with us!”

While I'm struggling so much to rent the space because nobody will rent it to me when I tell them what I want to do with it. So, I'm hoping that by putting pictures of rope, trying my very best for Facebook to not shut me down because I'm under their thumb. And trying my very best to get bondage out there. I'm doing ads. And I'm paying for the ads. Bondage images are distributed as much as possible! And I'm having problems with that of course, sometimes they shut down my ads because there's too much skin or it's sexually suggestive or stuff like that. And I try and go again with less skin and go again with less sexually suggestive. Some of my ads go through. So, it's fine. For now.

I'm trying to normalize it. I'm trying to show it as something people do, not something that people do underground in fringe places. It’s something people do openly and honestly. That's pretty much my position.

Vanina: I know, it's very similar in Bulgaria, so I know what you mean. Do you feel like it's changing? Is there some type of a positive impact?

Billie: I'm finding that because of the happy coincidence that Facebook is blocking my sexually suggestive images, I'm connecting with groups that would otherwise not have connected with sexually suggestive content. I'm connecting with people, younger audiences around 21, 22. People who come from artistic background, who are interested in this. I think they wouldn't have connected with me if I would have displayed a more traditionally sexual image. I find it very cool that they find the space to come and to explore their kink even though it's a tamer, more contemporary version of kink. All dressed. No nudity.

Vanina: It's a good entry level this way. It's not too scary, they're like "I can do that. Try something."

Billie: I feel like they were already kinky. I did not make them kinky. But they found their space to express themselves. I'm not sure if I'm changing attitudes or converting anyone. I don't think I'm converting anyone, at least not yet. But I'm definitely encouraging people who are already thinking about it and giving them the opportunity to maybe talk to their friends and families and normalize kink.

Kitty: As far as I'm concerned, six years ago when I entered the community, it was very small and there was very little awareness of anything. Then the “50 Shades of Grey” phenomenon happened. I know that a lot of people shun it and think it's really bad. But I think it got the conversation started about sexuality and that didn't exist there before. Now, if we want to represent ourselves in a positive way it’s our duty to take the bad information that came from that kind of culture and let people know about what BDSM actually is and how you can do it safely and what it looks like in regular people's lives.

I also think that we still face a big problem of the imagery of BDSM where people believe that in order to be a kinkster, you have to be the leather-clad mistress swinging a whip around. Or the master in leather pants ordering about slaves in shackles. They don't realize that a lot of the stuff that they already do in their bedroom is kinky. That they are kinky. I think for me, personally, that's been my goal in communicating this kind of stuff. To get people to realize that saying that you're a kinkster doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. Most people are kinksters. They just don't know it. They don't have the culture and education behind their practices to know how to do them better, to know how to get more pleasure, to do them in a more aware and consensual way.

Vanina: Yeah. I completely agree with that. Especially with the imagery that exists actually. That's what people expect from BDSM, from kink. Part of sluttish’s mission is to change that and present it the way it is, so people can admit to themselves “Oh yeah, I've been doing this for a while." People also ask me "How do you know that you are into BDSM? When did you know that?" I'm like it's not like you get into it all of a sudden, you usually already are doing some small things here and there.

Kitty:

I call it the "But I'm not a kinkster" phenomenon. I usually talk to a lot of people and they say stuff like "I like to tie my girlfriend but I'm not a kinkster." Or "Yeah, sure, I've fucked blindfolded but I'm not a kinkster." Because that label is very scary. It comes associated with that imagery of people doing extreme things in damp dungeons somewhere.

Billie: Like for example “I wouldn't know what to do with you, because I'm actually vanilla. I wouldn't know how to interact with you sexually or intimately because I'm not into the stuff that you are.” Three days later... “Oh, actually, If I think about it…”

Vanina: You said you do workshops specifically for pregnant ladies and for other types of bodies, other types of people that you usually don't see represented. Is this part of the political mission of the workshops? Is it something that you started recently?

Billie: Romania, and I think Eastern Europe is a late adopter of consent and left-wing movements and feminism. Because we are late adopters, we get it already done. It's already ripe. Feminism is so much more advanced right now than it was 50 years ago. The ideas of LGBT culture, gender theory, stuff like that is all very, very advanced. Most of the basic issues have been figured out. We are getting it ready made.

So, for us in Romania, it's so easy to involve inclusiveness, safer spaces, stuff like that, because we just search for it and it's there for everybody to read. How to be more inclusive, how to make your space more positive, more connected, more community like. So, of course, we are, as a group, quite interested that we should continue to have a good experience. Motherhood should not stop anyone from expressing themselves. I tied two people with diabetes, and I tied with somebody over 65, and I tie right now with somebody who has epilepsy. It's all fine. It's all absolutely fine. There are people who have phobias and are afraid to be upside down or think they're fat and they shouldn't be in ropes.

And you get to witness miracles, actual miracles right before your eyes when you meet someone who is bigger, and they say "Oh, I'm too fat, I can't be in ropes." And it’s such a simple thing we can do for them. The rope doesn't care. We tell them the rope doesn't care. Then they come and they feel accepted. It's so beautiful. I had this girl, and I think she thought that she couldn't be suspended. I did an inversion with her, a full 360, she felt like wonder woman after that. It was so beautiful to do that with her. I think because the west had to do all the heavy lifting, we can take it now and just apply it. Because of course, Eastern Europe is horrible on body image, sexuality and gender roles.

Vanina: Yeah, we're not very … progressive.

Kitty: No, we're excellent on gender roles, we have them very well entrenched.

Vanina: Ha-ha, yes very strict.

Kitty: Yeah, yeah - you really know what the gender roles are!

Billie: We have a student, a male student who does professional ballet. He's so beautiful in suspension. It's so beautiful that we can all enjoy him, and he can enjoy himself. Having this space where we all have the permission to be ourselves and express ourselves.

Vanina: By showing people that they can actually do whatever they think they couldn't do, you actually help them to accept themselves in a way. Which is what we all want at the end of the day.

Billie: It is definitely part of the political movement of "everybody should feel that they belong". This community!

Kitty: Nice is good.

Billie: Nice is good. This is the thing we say, this is our private code word, we do 'nice is good.'

Vanina: Is the sensation of doing rope different when you are pregnant and how?

Kitty: There's a lot of restrictions because of medical reasons. I think there is a normal degree of paranoia that exists because it's not just you. I used to do extreme stuff before becoming pregnant. I was totally fine with it because it was my risk and it was my body and I get to do whatever I want with my body. Now it's not just my body. It's not just my risk. I think that does change the experience, that awareness that there is someone else directly and immediately dependent on you and what you do.

Other than that, I've had a wonderful experience recently being tied by someone that I trust. It was quite the hardcore session, but it was absolutely fantastic. No suspensions for me, unfortunately, and I'm really suffering. I'm a drug addict that hasn't had their fix in a long time. I think after I give birth, I'm going to be like a dog out of the leash. "Tie me, everybody tie me."

Vanina: It's going to be days, probably. Just hanging of ropes.

Kitty: Yeah. Breastfeeding while getting tied. I can't detach the baby, but please tie me. Other than that awareness that there is more than just you in the ropes, no it hasn't changed that much. It's still the same fun stuff I used to always do.

I love that the fact that I am able to show that you don't stop being a sexual being just because you become a mother or you're about to become a mother. I think this idea is very entrenched, and the shaming that goes on against mothers is absolutely horrendous.

"Oh, she shouldn't dress in that short skirt because she's a mother." What does that have to do with anything? I don't stop being myself. I don't stop having sex. I don't stop having fun while having sex just because I've become a mother. Just as vanilla people should not be talking to their children about where they're sticking it and taking it out from, I'm not going to be talking to my children about that. That's my private sexual life.

That does not mean that I should stop behaving as a sexual being. I would like more women to feel empowered, even if they're pregnant, even after they become mothers, because really, they as people have not changed that much. They're the same people, they just have a baby. That's okay. That's super cool.

Vanina: I agree. But there is also all this lack of information around pregnancy and sex as well. People are scared to have sex during pregnancy. All my friends are like "No, I'm in the 7th month, I can't even think about having sex." So, there is a lot of misinformation as well, so breaking the stigma.

Kitty: I think getting a good doctor helps, which is obviously a big challenge. I've been very lucky to have a very good doctor. To be able to talk to her and get accurate information and to not be judged, which is a huge privilege. Because a lot of doctors are very judgmental, especially if they're males. But I've been very lucky to have someone who understands me. I'm completely honest with her, she knows that I'm kinky, she knows that I'm a bondage model. I've been able to get accurate information from her. I've never felt discouraged from being sexual. I have just learned more about the limits of what I'm able to do due to the changes in my body at this time.

Vanina: What's next for both of you, what are you doing next, what's happening next?

Kitty: Hopefully if heavens align, we hope to open a very nice rope space in Bucharest. Big one.

Billie: Hopefully.

Kitty: A very big and nice one. But it's been such a hassle and such a difficult thing to do and such a long road. I look forward to seeing the end of the road, the light at the end of the tunnel, the rainbow beyond the mountain. If we manage to open the space, then we will have a lot more events, workshops, hopefully, international presenters and teachers coming in and helping the community grow.

I know that for a lot of communities, having a space where people can get used to coming to. Knowing that they're going to find understanding and be welcomed in has meant a lot of growth for those communities. I think the community in Romania has been affected by not having that. Always being moved from place to place. Having precarious events that might be here today, but you don't really know where they're going to be organized tomorrow. You don't really know how the staff in the location is going to behave. It makes it a lot more difficult to grow as a community, to expand our horizons, to learn more, to become more. So, I really, really hope that opening this space will help people to find a home for themselves as they are. The way that they cannot be in society, because society will not accept them as they are. Fingers crossed.

Billie: Me, personally, I can't wait to start running weekly practice sessions and weekly classes. We have a bit of a community going on. They are trained to work by themselves, mixed level classes. The more advanced students help the beginners. They are quite self-sufficient, so they won't need me to baby them, which is lovely. When the community is empowered to teach themselves, it grows. The space has been the last roadblock. Because all the Romanians are very conservative, and the Eastern Europeans are very conservative, we are not institutionally stopped. We will get also legal coverage. Since we will be able to apply for funding from European institutions. Hopefully. Because I know there are institutions who are willing to help develop the building of the sexual minority communities. We have the privilege of having the permission to pursue this.

Kitty: I am very happy that there is more of a conversation going on about sexuality in all its forms. I hope that during our lifetimes, we see more generations coming out that don't see sex as taboo, don't see their sexual desires as something to be hidden and be ashamed of. Even stuff like their bodily functions, I don't think they should be taboo or become a secret and something that you cannot talk about. And nudity. I hope to see more nudity in public. That would be great.

Billie: This generation and the generations coming after us are so much better at expressing themselves. You see adults feeling they have permission to have teddy bears and to have kitties on their socks. I feel like our generation has much more freedom to express themselves than the generation before, and the people coming after us have are even better in that sense. I am really hopeful for the future!